Opened 14 years ago

Closed 14 years ago

Last modified 20 months ago

#7480 closed enhancement

WEB: md5 list sorting on webpage

Reported by: SF/joachimeberhard Owned by: fingolfin
Priority: normal Component: Web
Keywords: Cc:
Game:

Description

Hi Fingolfin.

You completely re-arranged the websites md5 list at http://www.scummvm.org/documentation.php?view=md5 some while ago, and I think it went in the right direction.

However, I think the sorting of the fields is not thought through at the moment.

At the moment, you sort the md5 list on the webpage MD5 Platform Language Extra information

In the launcher currently, you sort Language Platform Extra information

Which will change into Platform Extra information Language according to the bottom of this page http://wiki.scummvm.org/index.php/Auto_detection

Now, I think either style is fine, the one the launcher currently uses or the one that it will use.

But the current sorting of the md5 list is strange. May I suggest that you please change it into the current or the future launcher sorting method?

Either Language Platform Extra information or Platform Extra information Language

The last one seems to be more ideal as an overview for developers.

Thank you very much

Joachim

Ticket imported from: #1448273. Ticket imported from: feature-requests/296.

Change History (24)

comment:1 by sev-, 14 years ago

Owner: set to fingolfin

comment:2 by sev-, 14 years ago

Max, Joachim is our HE collection maintainer, and I myself find it more difficult now to use. Any comments?

comment:3 by fingolfin, 14 years ago

Summary: md5 list sorting on webpageWEB: md5 list sorting on webpage

comment:4 by fingolfin, 14 years ago

1) This is a FR, moving.

2) The order on the Auto Detection page is not meant to be authoritative -- it's really just an example. My new code doesn't follow that order either.

3) Changing the order on the web pages can be done in less than 5 mins, no problem (just have to change a single line in docs/md5.xml), and since I really don't care which order is used there, I'll be happy to change it. Though I don't understand why the current order of the columns is strange, compared to the two alternatives orders you suggest -- could you elaborate a bit on this?

comment:5 by SF/joachimeberhard, 14 years ago

Hi Max, thanks for catching up this topic.

I have spoken to different people via IRC to get some opinions on this topic.

Well, first thing, sorting 1) Platform 2) Language 3) Variant is plain strange, because you usually say German DOS EGA version, OR DOS EGA German, but not DOS German EGA I'd think. Method A: From the Engines point of view, it's interesting 1) Platform 2) Variant 3) Language, as the language isn't important for which target to choose.

Method B: But: For a user, it's probably more interesting which versions do exist for my language, which would be 1) Language 2)Platform 3)Variant.

The first method I discribed sorts the games well in perspective of the engines.

The second method is what would most likely be the most interesting sorting method for users.

So Counter-Question: What's the benefit of sorting by 1) Platform 2)Language 3)Variant, if it doesn't really sort by either Languages or Engines, because it totally mixes everything up with the Language in the middle?

The reason why I don't simply say: this is the way is because each way the list would be layoutet better for one particular purpose.

Of course, the devs themselves prefer the "Engines" perspective, I (as a user) am not so sure about that.

My personal wish would be that we could have the same sorting on the web-page, as the launcher would automatically sort the games.

Which makes http://wiki.scummvm.org/index.php/Auto_detection an important guideline for this question, because it describes the possible future sorting of the launcher.

So I'm not pressuring here for a quick solution, but would rather have a lot of consideration on this topic, because I feel it is important.

And, as I did allign the complete HE-md5 documentation (all md5s of every single game file documented) to the sorting of the md5list, it's important to me that we have a good, well-concepted md5list, with a sorting-method that's immediately feelable.

Also, regarding HE games:

For a few of them, method B would actually be more fitting, as you always have two platforms on one language CD (Mac and Win) and you tear them apart in the list when you sort by platform, although they are the same game. Of course, this doesn't apply for games marked as "All".

So, before you think I expect a quick-fix here, I'd hope for good thoughts that come up when different people see the same problem from a different perspective.

Please leave comments which method you favor, why, etc.

Thanks

Joachim

comment:6 by SF/joachimeberhard, 14 years ago

Ah, yes I forgot, Kirben for example mentioned he thought that 1)Variant 2)Platform 3)Language was best in perspective of the engines.

So we see, this is not an easy decission. :)

comment:7 by fingolfin, 14 years ago

Joachim,

just to clarify this: We are only talking about the *column ordering* here. We are *not* talking about *sorting* the games (=rows)! The table on the web site is not sorted at all, the order is simply the same as in the source file (scumm-md5.txt). Of course we could add sorting, and even base it on the priorities indicates by the column order, but that would be a different RFE).

"because you usually say German DOS EGA version, OR DOS EGA German, but not DOS German EGA I'd think." -- how do you know what *I* say? :-). This appears to be a very contrieved argument, since this is a matter of taste in the end. Not to say I am against the alternate ordering, mind you, I just don't buy the reasons you give :-).

"Which makes http://wiki.scummvm.org/index.php/Auto_detection an important guideline for this question, because it describes the possible future sorting of the launcher."

-> Wrong! As I said, it is *not* authoritative. I can go there and change the proposed order to match that on the MD5 page *now*, if you don't believe me :-). PLus, just to make sure we are not misunderstanding each other: We are not talking about the sort order of entries in the launcher here -- we are merely talking about how precisely the default labels used in the launcher will look like (in fact, this change has already been implemented by mostly, youc an try it in latest SVN; of course you have to re-add your games to see it in effect).

Personally, I do see one reason for changing the column order, precisely one, in fact: Consistency with the description ordering used in the launcher. However, this seems to still be somewhat far fetched, because one is an overview table, the other is a human language readable description string in the launcher; i.e. we are comparing Apples and Oranges. And few users will have a dozen variants of Monkey Island (most people who have that many are probably ScummVM developers *g*.

So, let me ask the other way around: What do you believ, which tasks become easier by changing to a different column order?

Again, I don't mind changing the column order. But really, aren't you making a mountain out of a molehill here? :-)

comment:8 by SF/joachimeberhard, 14 years ago

Well, talking about the order of the rows:

Kirben and I worked for over a month to sort the "rows" in a meaningful way. There is a huge thread where we worked and overworked again the list to make it perfect in a way, both I and Kirben and others liked it.

Then you rearranged the list completely, without considering this, because you probably didn't know. That's no problem, and after all, I'm not opposing the changes you made.

But I am saying, if you change it, I'd hope you find a way to make the list consistent and well sorted. It was, before the change. Again, I'm not blaming you here or anything. In fact, first I was happy to see that someone sat down and gave the list another overhaul. But somehow, then, I expected that over time you would give it more thoughts.

Kirben and I already had a talk, where he was willing to resort the list with me again, if we can find a sorting method that gets your support. So you see, your thoughts and support on this topic is important to us.

That's why we are waiting for you to work out the sorting method with us.

Preferrably for the Launcher and for the md5list at once.

As I said, I already did allign a complete HE-md5 list completely to the old list. And I added over 1200 md5s to that list, which was A LOT of work.

And now, I am planning to start the same for the LA games, as I do have many of them.

But I just need an md5 list with a reliable sorting to do just that. And with reliable I mean: The best we can come up with when a group of clever people (like we are :) ) gives their best thoughts on that.

So again, Kirben and I did a lot of sorting work on the list, even if it appeared to you it wasn't sorted, there was an easily feelable and understandable precise method behind it, and we worked for weeks on that. Please, let's make the list that way again.

It's actually not that you had to do the work, but we want your support and your agreement on this, since you took the lieberty of changing the list in the first place.

Thank you

Joachim

comment:9 by SF/joachimeberhard, 14 years ago

Well, talking about the order of the rows:

Kirben and I worked for over a month to sort the "rows" in a meaningful way. There is a huge thread where we worked and overworked again the list to make it perfect in a way, both I and Kirben and others liked it.

Then you rearranged the list completely, without considering this, because you probably didn't know. That's no problem, and after all, I'm not opposing the changes you made.

But I am saying, if you change it, I'd hope you find a way to make the list consistent and well sorted. It was, before the change. Again, I'm not blaming you here or anything. In fact, first I was happy to see that someone sat down and gave the list another overhaul. But somehow, then, I expected that over time you would give it more thoughts.

Kirben and I already had a talk, where he was willing to resort the list with me again, if we can find a sorting method that gets your support. So you see, your thoughts and support on this topic is important to us.

That's why we are waiting for you to work out the sorting method with us.

Preferrably for the Launcher and for the md5list at once.

As I said, I already did allign a complete HE-md5 list completely to the old md5 list. And I added over 1200 md5s to that list, which was A LOT of work.

And now, I am planning to start the same for the LA games, as I do have many of them.

But I just need an md5 list with a reliable and clever sorting to do just that. And with reliable I mean: The best we can come up with when a group of clever people (like we are :) ) gives their best thoughts on that.

So again, Kirben and I did a lot of sorting work on the list, even if it appeared to you it wasn't sorted, there was an easily feelable and understandable precise method behind it, and we worked for weeks on that, before Kirben and I really really liked it. Please, let's make the list that way again.

It's actually not that you would have to do the work, but we want your support and your agreement on this, since you took the liberty of changing the list in the first place.

Thank you

Joachim

comment:10 by fingolfin, 14 years ago

Now I am confused... I am pretty sure (and I just checked) that I didn't change the order of the *rows* in scumm-md5.txt *at all*. So what changes in the order of the *rows* are you talking about? Could you give a specific example, so I understand better what you mean? We are talking about scumm-md5.txt here, BTW. Or do you mean the MD5 web page, which is generated from scumm-md5.txt? Again, I didn't change the row order, I think (though I am not 100% sure), I merely rearranged the layout.

Again, *row* order is a different issue than *column* order, please make sure to use the proper terminology, otherwise, we'll keep misunderstanding each other :-).

As for the "well thought system" you and Kirben devised for the row sorting (to me, it seems the rows simply are sorted by platform/variant, BTW): While I am not aware of having made any changes to the row order, let me say this: Any good system like that *must* be properly documented, (e.g. by explaining it in a comment at the start of the file), otherwise other people have no way to know it, and hence can't adhere at it. Since we are a team effort, and collaboration is vital for us, this is really important. Do no rely on others being able to read your mind and magically knowing why you did something, unless you actually explain it (in comments, commit messages, wiki articles, emails to scummvm-devel, etc.). Note: Conversations on IRC do not count at all, BTW.

Finally: I do not plan to make *any* canges to the *sorting of rows in the launcher* -- it will stay alphabetically.

Of course, maybe you were again talking about the generation of descriptions and the order in which platform, language and "extra" text get tacked to the end of the descriptions. Alas, I am a bit tired now of having to ask again and again what you mean, please, try to be clear :-).

comment:11 by SF/joachimeberhard, 14 years ago

Hi Max again,

You changed the "columns" from Variant, Platform, Language to Platform, Language, Variant. With that change of course, the sorting of the rows doesn't make sense anymore. And I am leaving out talking about putting the md5s to the beginning, as it is the change that I welcomed. So when I say "row" I mean row, and by "column" I mean column. :)

That was the big change, as we sorted it by first Variant (EG All V1 or EGA or CD versions together) then sorted them by platform and then sorted them by language, all alphabetically.

Now it isn't sorted at all from left to right, and it doesn't make sense to sort it that way, as language is in the middle.

I will talk to Eugene if he may explain my issues further to you, I seem to fail to deliver the point to you.

Sorry, I hope I don't tire you too much with that.

comment:12 by sev-, 14 years ago

Current problem is visual one on the web page. I.e. columns order.

If you'd put it this way:

extra, platform, language

then it will look like a sorted list, because in fact it is already sorted in that order.

Position of md5 is irrelevant in this case, so it may stay on either side of those three.

comment:13 by fingolfin, 14 years ago

Ah, I think now I get what you are trying to say: You want the column order to reflect the priorities of the sorting. I.e. you sorted using the following sorting rule: first sort by extra; in case of a tie, sort by platform; in case of a tie sort by language.

And you want the columns to be ordered in such a way as to reflect these priorties. That's fine by me, but it's simply not true that it's not visible anymore by what the list is sorted (to me it's still quite visible), it's just that the order of the columns doesn't match the order of the sort priorities.

Well, I really do not care which order is used there, so I've just changed the column order. Alternatively, it would be very easy to change md5table so that it allows any sorting of the tables we desire. Heck, it would even be simple to let the users control the sort order on the fly on the web page, should we want that :-).

So I just changed the MD5 table to use the order Eugene suggested. Please tell me if that's OK now or not.

comment:14 by SF/joachimeberhard, 14 years ago

Yes, that's what we meant.

Thank you.

One last little suggestion: I'd recommend to revert back to the terminology "Variant" instead of "Extra Information", as it used to be.

And it would be way cool if we could have launcher and md5list sorting uniform in the future. :)

Thanks

Joachim

comment:15 by fingolfin, 14 years ago

Good to hear.

But the rest, no, we still are using a different language it seems <sigh>. The Launcher sorts alphabetically, and I don't think that'll ever change. I think you (again) really don't mean "sorting the launcher", you mean "order of the information in the description", maybe even "order". Using the word "sorting" as you do is wrong for two reasons:

1) Sorting is an active process. To sort something means you look at several things, compare them pairwise, and put the lowest one first, etc.. If I applied that to the descriptions, we'd end up with "Amiga EN V2", "CD DOS German", "FM-TOWNS JP" and "EN FM-TOWNS". That's probably not what you mean :-). Rather you want us to use a certain fixed order of the things :-)

2) We aren't talking about "the launcher" and "the md5 list" sorting/ordering here -- we are talking about sorting information in the description string of a single game / a specific entry in that table. This is what got me confused the most -- if you ask me to "change the sorting of the MD5 table", then to me that means you want to have it e.g. sorted by the MD5 value, ascening, or something like that :-)

comment:16 by SF/joachimeberhard, 14 years ago

Hehe, I mix things up due to the lack of my background knowledge of programming and math and stuff. ;)

Sorry for that, but glad to see that you understand what I mean, which is in your precise terminology "order of the information in the description"

Yes, I meant in fact that.

Also, I think you should replace the / as a separator for this information with a plain blank space.

Sorry, sometimes I seem to overflow with suggestions, and I can't transport them right. ;)

Thanks,

Joachim

comment:17 by SF/dajmidivx, 14 years ago

u bitches, how come that u couldnt help me but u could him

assholes

comment:18 by sev-, 14 years ago

Joachim, so are you satisfied now with it?

comment:19 by sev-, 14 years ago

Status: newpending

comment:20 by SF/joachimeberhard, 14 years ago

I think it's alright for now.

If I have any further suggestions, I hope it'll be alright to directly discuss them with Kirben again, because it's the easiest most efficient way. ;)

Thanks,

Joachim

comment:21 by SF/joachimeberhard, 14 years ago

Status: pendingnew

comment:22 by sev-, 14 years ago

Status: newclosed

comment:23 by fingolfin, 14 years ago

You are free to do whatever you like, just be ready to deal with the consequences w/o complaining (i.e. as long as you don't state somewhere what your secret "rules" are, people will "break" them... invsible rules aren't rules, ultimately).

comment:24 by digitall, 20 months ago

Component: Web
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